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RE: Group Xp Changes |
Pulse
Administrator
Posts: 46
Joined: 28.09.05 |
| Posted on Apr 04 2011 22:01 |
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laazarus wrote:
which of those four types is a mon? or a shf? (melee, sneaky, caster, healer).
mon is something along the lines of 85% melee 15% healer. Shf has a sneaky aspect but less healer. |
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RE: Group Xp Changes |
Takayuchi
Member
Posts: 25
Joined: 21.03.11 |
| Posted on Apr 06 2011 05:22 |
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It seems to me that monks and shf both do no appreciable damage compared to other "hitters" and will go from an excellent tank to a useless one if they are lumped in with damage-dealing classes. It will definitely punish a "tank" class for tanking, and ensure they get less experience than say, a tanking caster.
The idea of exempting the leader is an alright one, but would be ripe for exploiting (just make whoever is the redundant class the leader to maximize diversity bonus). I think the best idea is simply to have a 5th category of tank for mon shf. Otherwise I fear they will become a lot less popular since they do not fit into this 4 role model. |
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RE: Group Xp Changes |
Llanor
Member
Posts: 20
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 27.01.07 |
| Posted on Apr 07 2011 07:28 |
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Alternatively, if you base everything on the following 4 categories:
HP, melee, fp and healing
You'd get a distribution that can also take into account the difference between archers and warriors, even between monks and shadowfists.
If each chass adds a percentage to each of the categories, and the categories are maximized at a certain value, these 4 category values could be coefficients in the xp gain equations.
Example: The group consists of a monk, war, 2 archers and a cleric.
FORMAT: classname(hp, melee, fp, healing)
mon(0.6, 0.3, 0, 0.1) + war(0.2, 0.8, 0, 0) + 2*arc(0, 1, 0, 0) + cle(0, 0.2, 0, 0.8) = (0.8, 3.1, 0, 0.9).
This would most likely mean melee would be capped somewhere (my suggestion would be at 2).
Depending on the implementation of these variables, a caster could actually cause a slight increase in individual xp for the example group.
I suppose the easiest implementation is to sum the capped coefficients and use it as a factor for xp gained. |
 
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RE: Group Xp Changes |
Rakshasa
Member
Posts: 5
Joined: 30.09.09 |
| Posted on Apr 11 2011 09:38 |
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Changing things is good. Pushing people toward grouping is good. Helping usually less famous classes to join a group is nice.
Now, shall the reward only be experience ? I think that's a limitation of the problem we are trying to solve. A simple example : give the mob a 10% chance to drop a perfect gem if the group killing it has a cleric and you'll make clerics famous. Make the gear a 50% chance to be base 12 if the group has a mage and you'll make mages famous (haha, yeah, right). Double every gold reward if the group has a rogue and you'll make rogues famous. Experience is one facet of the game, enlarge your vision and you'll solve the problem faster and in a more pleasant way.
I never found grouping was a problem to solve in Avatar... the place is friendly and most people are pleasant to play with. If I want to group, I create a grouping alt and if I want to solo, I play my mage. I'm always happy to group with my friends, whatever they are playing.
Edited by Rakshasa on Apr 12 2011 15:53 |
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RE: Group Xp Changes |
Shezmu
Administrator
Posts: 13
Location: Arizona
Joined: 03.05.10 |
| Posted on Apr 11 2011 21:07 |
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Rakshasa, I love your line of thinking. For a long time now, I've always felt there was more to do than just collect XP.
Here's the problem with what you propose, though. Perfect gemstones have value now because they are rare. Hard to collect, harder to get the specific gemstones you need. B12 hero gear is equally tough to get. You can go through ten shields to get one B12.
Years ago, gold was given more emphasis in order to try to create more rewards other than XP. Now, peoples' banks are overflowing with gold, and it has little value in the game.
So, the question remains, aside from XP, how can we create a reward to encourage players to increase the diversity of their groups? What else has value in the game?
shezmu@outland.org
Edited by Shezmu on Apr 11 2011 21:07 |
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RE: Group Xp Changes |
Zarf
Member
Posts: 23
Location: Kansas City, MO
Joined: 26.02.07 |
| Posted on Apr 12 2011 13:16 |
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Shezmu,
Here is a thought - call it personal group boons. Each person can get a boon if another of the right race/class in the group with you. Some of these can be:
+dam against types of mobs,
reduces opponents sanctuary effectiveness,
everyone get a +1 to a stat (depending on mix),
reduced movement points,
extra ticks on spells,
clerics more effective on heals,
rogues more damage with in-class abilities,
spell casters spend less on damage spells (like chaos channel),
better chance of success with rescues,
reduce chance of being aggied (I'm looking at healers here),
etc...
It is all personal based upon your class/race and the other class/race combos in the group. Each person can get up to three boons. So a hie/mag has 3 chances of being improved - if paired with the right other classes or races. If you (developers) put a strong benefit of a physical type with a spell caster then war/bzk will want to have a mag/psi/etc in their group. Or make the healers cle/prs/dru beneficial to other then you will want them in your group to get the boon.
Zarf/Ylem/Wych/etc... |
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RE: Group Xp Changes |
Rakshasa
Member
Posts: 5
Joined: 30.09.09 |
| Posted on Apr 12 2011 15:37 |
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My best answer to your last question Shezmu is 'Time'. The Time you spend in the game reaching your goal, whatever it is.
I only have sparks of ideas about how to relate Time and the current thread, but when I first read the posts here I was thinking : this change is made to speed things up - allow more people to level faster.
So basically, if I follow my idea, I would have to present a away to relate diversity and time. I came up with one good example : the priest class at lord saves time by preaching new spells to the entire group. Priest power is rated in term of Time gained rather than damage done. You can follow this idea and realize that casters at lord are also very valuable because they buy the group Time with surged spells by killing the foes faster.
With current hero area design, brutes are best Time buyers of all classes, and so, they are highly prized in groups. Change this balance and you will change group composition.
Now you are at the same point as I am. Let the seeds grow up and flourish in great ideas.
Time is of the essence.
Edited by Rakshasa on Apr 12 2011 15:52 |
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RE: the goal |
laazarus
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: 21.12.07 |
| Posted on Apr 12 2011 19:23 |
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i don't think the goal is to shorten the time spent leveling at hero, but rather to increase the frequency, variety and quantity of groups. they may be related but one does not necessarily require the other. |
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RE: Group Xp Changes |
Llanor
Member
Posts: 20
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 27.01.07 |
| Posted on Apr 13 2011 09:39 |
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After some discussion on bset yesterday we came to conclude something that I thought would be important to mention here:
This change shouldn't force variety to accomplish efficiency. The change should only compensate for (part of) the loss of xp you currently get when running with a varied group due to some classes being inefficient for running.
What really bothers me about the idea of making casters more groupable is that nothing is done to casters to compensate for this newly gained attribute. They already excel at soloing due to the ability to deal high amounts of damage while in full ac gear. If they become groupable to the point where they would be equivalent to brutes, I don't see why anyone would ever want to run a non-caster.
Based on this problem, I don't think group variety should give anything more than maybe a 30% xp increase. I wouldn't want to see future changes made to casters that would make them worse at soloing.
Edited by Llanor on Apr 13 2011 09:40 |
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RE: Group Xp Changes |
Riviat
Moderator
Posts: 91
Location: UK
Joined: 14.07.05 |
| Posted on Apr 13 2011 15:33 |
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These are my personal comment/thoughts rather than an official statement of policy about the proposed changes.
Not everyone plays a particular class (or race) to be the most efficient, some people play them for roleplaying reasons or because they just like that particular style of play rather than to min/max.
We have a mix of players who play for various reasons and to achieve multiple goals, whether it be to get on HELP HIGHEST, to achieve a particular remort race or class, to level effiiciently, achieve Hero and/or Lord in all available classes, explore all the realm and be able to walk everywhere, complete all the in-game quests etc or just be playing to relax and socialise with levelling a nice bonus.
We'll be trying to accomodate the different playing styles and please as many people as possible with whatever is finally implemented but we may not be able to please everybody 100%.
It's great to see all the input so far and thank you very much to everyone who is contributing to this  |
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RE: Group Xp Changes |
Ginta
Member
Posts: 6
Joined: 14.07.10 |
| Posted on Apr 30 2011 00:10 |
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I've noticed recently, since the lowmort xp changes, that people are less and less inclined to group with other lowmorts. I can only assume it is because xp has gone down so much that it's no longer worth it to bring someone along, and even enough of a difference that it makes leveling significantly longer. |
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RE: Group Xp Changes |
Llanor
Member
Posts: 20
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 27.01.07 |
| Posted on Apr 30 2011 09:01 |
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I think the lack of grouping at lowmort is because people are having a hard time embracing the new lowmort xp. It's the opposite of what's happening at lord, I think people are just waiting for the lowmort change to be reverted until they start running their lowmorts again.
I can't say if I like the lowmort change or not. The way people rush through lowmort has always bothered me but it's a choice people should be allowed to make. Even to a person who likes lowmort (like myself), it's very discouraging to see xp gains drop by this much.
What I always liked about lowmort is that it does allow for soloing, regardless of the race/class combination. |
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RE: Hero xp casters |
Elec
Member
Posts: 10
Joined: 01.05.11 |
| Posted on May 01 2011 11:46 |
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I had a similar note on the mud but thought I'd elaborate it here. Also Llanor was earlier wondering whether casters are relatively more powerful now.
Casters are even more undermined by these new changes because of (relative) nerfing of solo xp. Since in absolute terms xp is still the same, people might feel this is more acceptable. However in relative terms, solo xp has fallen by close to a third to a half. This will encourage even more casters down the tanking path. You could always get more xp tanking earlier too, but the relative difference is much more now - almost 2-3 times.
I would like to request that solo be treated differently from a "group of one". Part of the appeal of playing casters at hero is soloing. Also there are many rl and mudwise (exploring and otherwise) reasons why soloing at hero is not undesirable.
If I want to group, I'll play a grouping char. If I want to solo, I want something which can solo without being too slow. Many people solo while waiting for tanks or hitters to show up. |
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RE: Group Xp Changes |
Kerrinth
Administrator
Posts: 12
Location: Canada
Joined: 16.05.10 |
| Posted on May 01 2011 19:21 |
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Elec wrote:
solo xp has fallen by close to a third to a half.
Just for clarification Elec, the message which indicates how much experience you would have gained under the old XP logic, is it similar, and the total experience you're gaining decreased?
If this the above is the case then it sounds like more people are running in the same area as you.
The experience you get from a kill depends on several things: how many players are in your group; your level versus the level of the monster; how many of this monster have been killed lately; and some random variation.
So I am curious if you are finding this problem to exist in all areas? Or just in one or two areas that you have run in frequently?
Kerrinth, Demon Immortal of AVATAR. |
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RE: Group Xp Changes |
Neyne
Member
Posts: 14
Joined: 28.01.07 |
| Posted on May 01 2011 21:20 |
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No, he is saying that he does get the same amount of XP as before, but under the new system groups get even more, and he wants his xp boosted too so he can match them.
Which is silly because then the XP dropoff from solo to duo would be enormous and nobody would duo anymore. And if you then changed the curve so the dropoff from 1 to 2 was less drastic, then the new system would just amount to a blanket XP increase and we'd be right back to bigger groups being outright inferior to tiny elite groups. |
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RE: Group xp solo (hero) |
Elec
Member
Posts: 10
Joined: 01.05.11 |
| Posted on May 02 2011 08:52 |
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Sorry if I wasn't clear in the earlier post. Indeed I tried to mention the word "relative" several times to emphasize this.
Indeed I mean that soloing has becoming less (much less) viable now because tanking with a caster gets you so much more xp. For example earlier you could solo for 7-8k xp and tank for 8-9k, while tanking with the same group gets you 15k xp now. So this will encourage even more casters down the tanking path.
I don't think treating soloing differently will be "silly" for the reasons I mentioned in my note in the mud but might be worth repeating here.
1. The dropoff from solo to duo will not be that huge. If you check the percentages posted in the first note (I'm not sure how much they've changed), you still get more than 80% of the base xp of the mob duoing. Assuming you kill every mob twice as fast duoing you'll get much more xp than soloing.
2. The broader point is that the new changes have had virtually no effect on either the composition of or number of groupies in hero groups. I would be glad to hear if I'm saying something inaccurate.
You can still get a ton more xp just bringing brutes than with a diverse group. For example earlier you could get 8-10k xp just getting brutes and one-rounding everything. A more diverse group would've got something like 5-6k. Now you get like 15k (or more) xp with a group of just brutes and like 10k for a more diverse group.
As you can see the ratio is pretty much the same from earlier. Only the xp is increased.
3. I have yet to see anyone (reading notes on the mud or here) supporting the new xp changes for anything except the increased xp. Indeed I proposed that a blanket increase across the board would be fairer and simpler. If it sounds silly, that might mean there's not much point to the changes.
Again, I'm not opposed to increased xp. Neither to the good thing the imms tried something new. However, in my humble opinion, it has failed at what it tried to accomplish. |
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RE: Group Xp Changes |
Izanagi
Administrator
Posts: 8
Location: Japan
Joined: 25.06.08 |
| Posted on May 02 2011 19:02 |
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Elec wrote:
3. I have yet to see anyone (reading notes on the mud or here) supporting the new xp changes for anything except the increased xp. Indeed I proposed that a blanket increase across the board would be fairer and simpler. If it sounds silly, that might mean there's not much point to the changes.
While I realise that you are talking about the hero experience mostly, I can definitely say that my experience with the new XP changes at lowmort have been very positive. The changes have resulted in much more grouping at lowmort, and far less tendency to just solo through it. A group of three or four seems to be fun, profitable and capture much of the feeling of lowmort groups from back in the 'good old days'. I personally haven't enjoyed myself so much at lowmort in ages, and it was very nice to be grouping up with various different players, including some who were first timers to Avatar and getting into the social game that little bit earlier than hero. |
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RE: grouping at low mort |
laazarus
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: 21.12.07 |
| Posted on May 30 2011 18:42 |
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the only problem i have grouping at low mort is the same as previously - there usually aren't enough players online close enough to my lvl to find a group. i think it's still the case you need to be within 10 lvls of each other or something to get full xp.. |
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RE: Group Xp Changes |
Pulse
Administrator
Posts: 46
Joined: 28.09.05 |
| Posted on Jun 16 2011 14:00 |
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Just to clarify, the current implementation is what I intend to keep. If you have significant concerns with it, please let me know.
ps |
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RE: Group Xp Changes |
Neyne
Member
Posts: 14
Joined: 28.01.07 |
| Posted on Jun 16 2011 23:55 |
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Only thing else I'd want is to tweak lowmort xp so to loosen up a bit, so differing levels aren't as penalized as much. |
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